Questions from the MassLive site about the possibility of a Southampton Greenway I've decided that the best way to answer the questions that pop up from time to time on MassLive is to answer them directly here--and not on MassLive.  There will be more opporunity for people to see the answers here, rather on such an obscure and limited venue like a MassLive posting format.   Craig Della Penna 1/18/07 masslive: Doesn't the rail trail depend on a special grant from the federal government which restricts the use by motorized vehicles and also designates the type of surface that must be used on the trail? I think the name of the grant is the "Ice Tea" grant. We should be looking at the criteria of the grant itself before making any rash decisions. Although Mr. Della Penna has vast experience due to his history working with the rail road company and real estate, I think we should be made aware of the particulars of the grant or we may end up holding the bag. y myyard1966, 1/18/07 22:09 ET Re: I may have this wrong but,,,,, by StonDoc, 1/18/07 Very good question, StonDoc, worth looking into, I can't imagine that Craig DP would have knowledge of such grant information like that & not inform us at his presentation, Perhaps he was going to bring it up at a later date? FROM CRAIG DP--  First off, I did NOT do a presentation for the select board.  I only spoke for a few minutes and answered questions that were put to me. My "presentations" are with PowerPoint on an LCD projector that usually are about 40 minutes in length.  And since I have a collection of photos that is now well over 8,000 to draw from, let me just state this. . . Anytime, anyone brings forward an issue of why a trail cannot be done, I have pix [and usually several] of where it was done, by who and when that address that issue.  And for the record, I'd be very happy to go before any group or organization or into people's houses for smaller gatherings to do a presentation on this. My pix don't lie--nor do I. Onto the questions. If the town goes with the funding from the enviromental side then there are no real onerous federal regulations to deal with in terms of surface or user groups.  If the town goes for transportation funding then it is a MUCH more exacting and Byzantine process.  Here's the facts with the Federal regulations. There is no Federal reguation  that says pavement needs to be used.  Only that it needs to be a firm surface suitable for wheelchair users. Stone dust fits that category. The last time Southampton looked at this question, MassHwy said it had to be paved. That was then. MassHwy has changed the policy about surface so that a community can have a soft surface trail if they want to. Southampton is a place that likes its rural character and has lots of equestrians. A soft surface like stone-dust or even gravel would be an option most people in Southampton would likely appreciate.  As for motorized. . . .Snowmobiles are an exception to the non-motorized use on these trails.  Snowmobiles would be an option for the town.  IF the town wanted to go for Transportation based funding, and if the town wanted to allow snowmobiles, than it would be permissable under the federal regulations. The owner of the trail is the decider. The City of Easthampton decided to NOT allow snowmobiles on the Manhan Rail Trail. The state decided to not allow snowmobiles on any of the paved rail trails they own manage--like the Norwottuck Rail Trail or the Ashuwilliticook Rail Trail. The managing entity can decide. Here's some sites of value.  http://enhancements.org/  Tells how the  TE or Transportation Enhancements Funds work. http://www.vhb.com/mhdGuide/mhd_GuideBook.asp is MassHighway's new design guide book.  Chatper 11 deals with building the highly polished trails --including soft surface trails. unused railcars being stored at North Road--near the border with Southampton by StonDoc, 1/18/07 21:30 ET Re: Rail Trail by Stallion, 1/18/07 Okay, if the rail trail should end at Route 10, then is the railroad or the town (depending on ownership) going to throw up the rest of the trail between Route 10 and the Westfield line up for sale to its abutters? It would only make sense if what you say is true? I also might add a bike trail going through your secluded back yard cannot be compared to an open space sidewalk. Think about that clearly for a moment. It would be much more opportunistic for someone to breach your property using a bike trail than a sidewalk, that's just common sense.  by myyard1966, 1/18/07 22:28 ET Re: Rail Trail by Stallion, 1/18/07 Craig claims that that the railroad will use the tracks on brickyard rd. for storage of rail cars for the still operating Westfield end. What do you think? Not much demand for the the railway anymore, why would you need storage? Thats only my opinion. A couple of questions in here. . . The railroad owns there land--not the town of Southampton, not the City of Westfield and the owners will determine what they'll do with it.  Facts are pretty clear.  The owner of the railroad grew up with the RR in his family. He watched old RR lines owned by his family be shut down , sold off and disappear. He watched the Cincinnati & Frankfort in KY get sold off and disappear. He watched the Saratoga and Schuylerville Railroad get sold off and disappear. He watched the Hoosac Tunnel & Wilmington RR in MA and VT get sold off and disappear - except for a short greenway trail in southern VT. He also watched the eastern most section of the Concord & Claremont Railroad - the very scenic section near Lake Sunapee get sold off for enhanced shore front house lots. [side-bar. . .Click here for a chapter of one of my books about the section of the C&C that is open as a greenway trail. Click here to see a story about the efforts to refurbish one of two covered railroad bridges on the rail trail section of the C&C.] He confided to me a few years ago that that was a mistake for his family's company to sell the special place merely for bigger big yards and it should have become a trail. In fact his company - which still owns railroad corridor in about  six or seven states,  will never ever again sell former railroad corridor to adjoining land owners.  The president of the railroad in Westfield is someone who is seen often on the rail trails of the region with his family. You would never recognize him as he looks an average person walking or hiking or biking along.  He and his company will wait for the people of Southampton get to yes on the idea of taking control of his family's treasure. One day, when the town is ready. As to the question of storing railcars.  Here's how it all works.  The business cycle fluctuates--up and down. The inventory or railcars in the system must accommodate the business needs of the shippers in the U.S when the business cycle is up--and the need is greatest. When the cycle goes down, the unused railcars aren't just cut up for scrap and thrown away. They are stored. In recent years, the car storage business is something that savvy short line railroad operators search out. During the last recession, the Pioneer Valley Railroad [subsidiary of Pinsly RR--and owner of the tracks in Southampton] stored scores if not hundreds of railcars on various unused tracks in Holyoke. Now that PVRR has some business along a long stretch of track in Holyoke--a stretch of track that used to be used for storage of railcars, there will be a need in the next down turn in the business cycle for them to store cars. They might not need the capacity behind Brickyard road for a while, but the need is coming and they won't be selling that segment simply for the reason that they can make a few dollars per car without a lot of manpower in the shuffling of them around.  They will just sit. Just like the ones sitting just south of North Road in Westfield now.  [see pix above] Now about the 'thinking clearly' part about a secluded trail-- being the route for a burglar to break into a house. Apparently the nieghbors to a trail in Avon CT thought so too.  Here's their interesting story of their fence that would protect them from the adjacent rail trail. Anyway, here's the most recent study about crime on rail trails around the U.S. and many letters from police chiefs about their experience in their town.  And here's a story about the police and realtor experience in Lexington, MA where the Minuteman Trail passes through. Railbanking questions--and answers Click on this image to go to a PDF file by nimby1073, 1/19/07 12:56 ET Re: I may have this wrong but,,,,, by StonDoc, 1/19/07 "Ice Tea" is really ISTEA, the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991. ISTEA has now been replaced by SAFETEA-LU (what names these bills have got) Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users, signed in 2005. Under this bill, 4.4 million was earmarked specifically for bike paths in Hampshire County. Hampshire County received the most earmarked funding in the state. ----- 808.2.2. Abutters by StonDoc, 1/19/07 18:49 ET Re: I may have this wrong but,,,,, by StonDoc, 1/19/07 I read the website. Very informational but distressing in that they plan to use the rail line behind Brickyard Rd. as a storage area. I have asked this before and please forgive my redundancy but If the town votes to accept the rail trail, is it not voting to buy the complete trail in the town? Why then wouldn't the town fathers allow the abutters to purchase the remaining line from Route 10 to the Westfield line? It was mentioned in the website that the future plan does not include this part of the rail line anyway. They stated that to connect with the Columbia rail trail, the plan would be to use little used or back roads to complete the connection. This solution would probably ease the abutters valid concerns and not inhibit the continuity of the trail if in fact that is the truth of it all. -------  by myyard1966, 1/19/07 18:48 ET Re: Rail Trail by Stallion, 1/19/07 As far as storage goes,the railroad would have to rebuild all the tracks that have been left abandoned & paved over all this time. This claim of ending at rt 10 is mainly just a attempt to keep quiet the most vocal opponent, who lives on brickyard rd. comments and answers from CraigDP. . . I see at least a few questions here. . .And starting from the bottom.  Quieting vocal opponent is not anyone's goal and I've never operate in that fashion. I kinda like the debate. And not only am I genuine about going anywhere to talk to anyone at anytime on this, but I'll provide Comp'd room nights at my B&B in Florence that sits 8 feet from the oldest muni-built rail trail in southern New England. http://www.sugar-maple-inn.com This special offer is only available to opponents though.  Trail proponents have to pay. Anyway, the thread here is about the reality is that the RR never intended to relinquish anything south of Rt 10 and they always intended to keep it for RR operations.  But what could that really mean?  "RR operations."   Since there are no big tracts of industrial zoned land along Brickyard Road, it could only be storage of cars that are not needed for day-to-day operations.  And here's the facts on the costs of building a railroad.  Not from scratch as in having to build a 'grade' per-se, just to build out tracks.  Here's the costs as I know them.   $300K a mile to build low speed, Class 1 track. This class of track is rated up to 20MPH and is the generic sort of track that short line railroads operate on. Commuter/Passenger Rail--up to 60 mph with all the bells and whistles for signals, passing sidings, spartan stations, parking lots etc [not including land aquisition costs are about $8-10 million a mile.  [the Greenbush line ressurection project is MUCH more expensive $400+ million for about 18 miles] because of the need to build a tunnel under Hingham Square. If the corridor north of Rte 10 in Southampton became rail banked--and then in the future--maybe many years from now, if the RR needed to come back they could, and it obviously wouldn't be too expensive in comparison to say---the Big Dig which cost $4 billion a mile. Onto RAILBANKING.. . We have to back up to the days of PennCentral in order put it all into context.  For a concise history of PennCentral I wrote for the begining of my book on NY rail trails - Click here. Though I wrote it about 6 years ago, it is still kind of interesting and it lays it all out. btw, Did I mention that I've written 3-books on this and have been on over 250 trails now?  [Still looking for the one that people said was bad, full of problems and needed to be torn up.]  To see an op-ed piece I wrote for a newspaper in Northern VT about why the St. Johnsbury and Lamoile County RR didn't work anymore and needed to be made into a trail--through railbanking Click here.  This link has links to Congressional testimony on how railbanking came to be. Though I wrote this piece when I worked for RTC, it was about 3 years now.  [time flys]  This corridor was railbanked about 12-15 months ago now and has been turned over to VAST --Vermont Assoc of Snow Travelers to manage and build out as a 100-mile long, four season all weather, soft surface trail that is in a rural area about 25 miles from the Canadian border.  [Railbanked, rural, soft surface, snowmobiles not only allowed, but the trail is run by them. And not just for winter use, but all year and all sorts of users like hikers, equestrians and bicyles too.] Here's a link  to report about railbanking.  A report about railbanking in the U.S. [Actually if I remember right, this was the handout I had for the selectmen in town when I went to answer questions and talk about what was new.] Once you read all the context material about what is railbanking and how it came here, you'll then get a better understanding of how the map I've put up, works.  Any corridor that is railbanked needs to connect back to operational railroad. That is to say, if the corridor on the northside of Southampton was railbanked, then the section the south side would need to be too--or at least not abandoned.  Therefore the section behind Brickyard Road could not be abandoned and then sold off to adjacent landowners.  If that happened, then the section on the northside would not be able to be railbanked--as it would be severed from the operational railroad.  And since it is the policy of EOT now in Massachusetts to not allow corridor to be purely abandoned now--without a hearing before the Sec of Transportation-- and only railbanked for this very reason of sales [or giveways] to abutters, that sales to abutters won't be an option. Towns are falling apart and can't afford such uneeded things like a trail or greenway! Email is bad for conversations.  I was just trying to poke some fun here and I thought I was perhaps dealing with the savvy lawyer, but I was wrong and I apologize, because perhaps you are just a fellow from Southampton, looking for honest answers to these questions of doing a rail trail.  In order to jump in this piece, I'll break it down as I go. 810.1. Yes I REALLY do!!!!!!!! by StonDoc, 1/19/07 19:24 ET Re: answers to questions. by CraigDP, 1/19/07 Does your research of incidents show the amount of trespass, break-ins and/or other breaches along only those homes/businesses that abut rail trails? Sounds to me that I may have hit a nerve with your less than cordial response on your website. Are you thinking "clearly" yet? If so, maybe you can see past your own bias and try to see a mutually benefiting answer to this problem. And while we are at it, can you provide information on the status of support that the police forces in the municipalities mentioned on your website receive? This sound reasonable.  Although I don't do research per se, I only uncover reports done by others.  Once again, here's the country's most thorough report about crime and safety regarding rail trails. Be sure to look at the end of the document as you'll see lots of letters much like Easthampton PD's Chief McMahon's recent letter.  If you believe that the police chief letters were lies, then try this.  Go to this site. Here you'll find a searchable database of every open rail trail in the US.  Once you are on  it, you can find the communities it passes through.  Call or email the local newspaper, the police chiefs, the radio stations, or other orgs like maybe the Chamber of Commerce.  Try and find one trail or greenway that is thought bad of by the community.  I'm sure that you'll even be told that there was a lot of angst and fear in the community when the trail was proposed. See what they think about it now.     I don't know if you know this or not, but guess what: the town of Southampton is already screaming about its lack of and inability to function at 100% with our current budget. So maybe you can answer for all of us, just how the rail trail will benefit an already overworked police force Not to mention that our schools lack math tutors, that our library has inefficient coverage, that our fire department is only volunteer and wait don't forget that we can't seem to find money to repair existing roadways. Another thing, who is this benefiting anyway, I want to know that too. I would like to see some of that money spent on our seniors and our teen population. This scenario of the wheels falling off municipalities is not unusual.  I travel 600-900 miles a week going into communities all over the commonwealth and the story is all the same. Towns are broke, muni staff is overworked, etc etc. Southampton isn't alone in that regard. If you put a 100 mile radius around the Northampton/Southampton area there are over 200 rail trail projects underway right now.  The vast majority are in places not nearly as wealthy as Southampton.  However, many are having the exact same difficulties as Southampton's muni government.  Nothing is new there. The main difference is that many of the places are building out their trail and greenway w/o any government assistance.  Just doing it with local fundraisers because they know that the town's people can't afford a tax increase on their property. Here's a great essay from a woman a small town in Ontario County near Canadaigua New York . Her small group of volunteers have built a 23 mile trail when people said it couldn't be done.   Oh and by the way, seniors using the trail is a commonplace occurrence--and kids too. In fact the trail next to my house has so many kids biking to school on it that the plows it in the winter.  Can't be expecting that in a small town like Southampton though. That is different.  One place you should check out is the Wachusett Greenways. Most of their volunteers building their greenway are seniors. Seniors in places like Rutland, Barre, West Boylston etc.   Towns with muni-problems just like Southampton, but not nearly as wealthy as Southampton's residents are.  The link to WG is to their capital campaign where they'll raise over $100,000 by year's end.  No big Fed dollars and regs coming in.  Nor do they go to their broke towns with their hands out. Shall I go on? Please don't get pompous with me, I have pretty much had it with outsiders telling me what is good for me. When you have walked a mile in anyone of our shoes then and only then you earn the right to project yourself in such a manner. Until then, put a sock in it. Everywhere I go, I am called the outsider so this is no different for me. As I said before, I do 600-900 miles a week assisting in the advocacy of trails and greenways in the region.  Last year, I did 45 lectures around the region in the evenings. Lost another 30 lbs by walking my little Scottish Terrier with my wife on the rail trail next to my house. Sold enough real estate--some next to or near to rail trails and greenways, to be the third top agent at The Murphys--one of the largest and most respected firms in the region,  Have a niche practice that was featured in the National Realtor Trade magazine. Set up an email newsletter about trail and greenway development that goes out to over 10,000 people monthly. And I could go on, but I'll just leave you with this.  The one thing that gives me the right to be a bit light harted sometimes is the fact that I know I am making a difference.  In 1996, when I first started doing this stuff, I was helping in Belchertown Mass in what was the biggest rail trail war in the region.  I remember being in the house of a couple who were equestrians and were tearfully telling me that they loved trails, But the fact that the trail in Belchertown was going to be paved meant that they were going to fight it tooth and nail.  They actually owned part of the former RR corridor and bragged that it would only be taken from them by eminent domain. As you probably know, the paved trail project was ultimately voted down.  [by 45 votes out of 5,000 cast]   At that time, there were zero miles  of the ten miles in Belchertown in any kind of public or protected status.  Today, ten years later, 6 of the 10 miles is owned by the  land trust  who is developing it for all sorts of users--including equestrians. When I recently drove by the couple's house in Belchertown on my way to Palmer,  the gate used to block the trail was open.  When I went to the website for the land trust on another matter to look up something, I noticed that they had a few new board members.  One of the new board members was the equestrian fellow I knew from the Btown war.  He is serving on the board of the land trust.  Don't tell me about shoes, cuz you don't know the miles I've traveled. However, I'll be polite to you because I'm going to assume you are a genuine person interested in facts --and just how this crazy trail or greenway thing could work in a place like Southampton.  WHY DO WE NEED TO BUY IT? IT ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE! Here's the question its entirety.   I read the site,  He used a couple of my questions from this forum, not all of my questions, just the ones he wanted to answer.I have a question to all of the supporters of a crushed stone greenway, kept up by voulenteers. Isn't that what we have now??? I have lived by this railway for 20 years, after the railway left, the snowmobile club would clear trees once a year. Horses, hunters, dirt bike riders, people walking dogs use this railway every day. WHY DO WE NEED TO BUY IT!! If we don't, WHO ELSE IS GOING TO WANT IT!!! Let it be the rairoads responsibility & collect thier taxes. We can not afford this trail at this time. WHERE IS IT GOING TO GO IF WE DON'T BUY IT??? Here's my answers to the numerous questions contained above. . . . He used a couple of my questions from this forum,not all of my questions, just the ones he wanted to answer. That is NOT true.  I don't live on the flamer site and I count on other people to send me the questions posted on there. And besides, I'm the busiest guy you know.  I'll get to all the questions--as they are sent to me by people. If I miss any, it is because I haven't been told of them. Here we go. I read the site,  I have a question to all of the supporters of a crushed stone greenway, kept up by voulenteers. Isn't that what we have now??? I have lived by this railway for 20 years, after the railway left, the snowmobile club would clear trees once a year. Horses, hunters, dirt bike riders, people walking dogs use this railway every day. In some ways yesI This is true. There are people out there often. The uses wouldn't change and the trail clean ups, maintenance, improvements would be done largely by volunteers, but you are missing a few points.  A key point is that the common thread among all the current users is that they are all trespassers on someone else's land. Another thing to consider is the contamination issue.  No one has really looked into what is there.  Don't forget that the land on the south side of Easthampton was contaminated with asbestos from WR Grace company's facility on Wmelco Way. Here's a draft chapter from an upcoming book I have on rail trails in the region that lays out the history of the corridor and the history of the remediation. No one really knows what is there and it doesn't make a lot of sense to be out there without some kind of assessment. Not that it cost a real lot of money to know, --probably well under $10K for a professional Phase I environmental assessment.  I'll also point out that there are several Licensed Site Professionals--who do these assessments, live in Southampton.  I'll bet that they would be happy to do such a thing for a discounted price.   Another factor is the bridges.  They are not safely decked for pedestrians and certainly not for horses. btw, here's a site that deals with how to improve former railroad bridges for horses. WHY DO WE NEED TO BUY IT!! If we don't, WHO ELSE IS GOING TO WANT IT!!! As I mentioned before, I've been on about 250 finished rail trails.  I have also been on over 300 dead railroad corridors that were  lost due to encroachers who slowly but surely do things that muddy the ownership and claim it for their own. Just 7 weeks ago I discovered a particularly egregious example of a builder who saw cut out the track of a dormant state owned railroad corridor, bulldozed out the 6 foot fill, to put in a driveway to reach a building lot to construct a house.  Click here, to go to a little PDF file of it. I told the right state officials who now are letting the new homeowner know about the coming rail trail in their front yard.   In another example, when the former Marlborough Branch of the B&M RR was slated to become a trail called the Assabet River Rail Trail, , the town of Hudson discovered dozens of encroachments that needed to be dealt with. Sheds, pools, gardens--on top of former RR corridor, you name, it was there.  Same sort of thing took place when the state rolled back nearly 100 encroachers in Waltham and Watertown when they went it to build the Charles River Trail. The official for the state who did this work of rolling back the encroachers now gives lectures at state and national conferences on how to do this work. Believe me, people will encroach and take over the corridor. Let it be the rairoads responsibility & collect thier taxes. We can not afford this trail at this time. WHERE IS IT GOING TO GO IF WE DON'T BUY IT??? I am always surprised when I hear that people think that RRs pay taxes on their land.  They DO NOT pay muni property tax on the corridor if the tracks are in place and the line is not formally abandoned.  Once the abandonment takes place, and the tracks removed, then the tax bills can be sent.  Interestingly however, most municipalities don't know that.  In fact, one way I start a trail project in a given town is to point out to the assessors or tax collector's office that the railroad hasn't been paying taxes on their trackless and formally abandoned RR corridor. Once the railroad begins to get billed for taxes, that gives them the impetus to find a way to convey the property to someone else. As for affordability, well there is $400K in the state bond bill due to Senator Knapik. Since the RR will only be interested in selling the north side of town, I would guess that it will be enough to buy it. But no appraisal has been done yet.